How to Turn Emotional Distance into Intimacy with Heather Shannon | Ep 50

Introduction to the Episode

Dr. Diane: Welcome to the Libido Lounge where we focus on all things love, lust, and libido. We believe that fabulous sex is important to health as exercise and good food. Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode on the lounge. I’m your host Dr. Diane and I’m super excited about this whole summer. So remember you guys, we are in sexy season this summer, so just keep looking out for all the fun bonuses we have for you guys. Make sure you go take our libido quiz and make sure when you’re done with this amazing episode that I’m so excited about.

Dr. Diane: I’m going to introduce you to sex therapist Heather Shannon and I am so excited about this conversation you guys. I met Heather on an intimacy summit; we were co-speakers on that summit and I was very, very impressed with Heather’s background around the emotional component around sexuality, how we compartmentalize emotions, how this is related to libido, and so much more. So we’re going to talk about some really cool topics and remember to download this, to share this, to make sure you spread the word about this episode.

Dr. Diane: Because the episode that has the most downloads and shares and likes and all those great things, we’re going to invite that person back for a deep dive at the end of the year so we can go much deeper into your favorite topics. So make sure you share all those things and welcome. I’m so happy about our conversation, thanks for being here Heather.

Heather: Thank you, Diane. I’m excited too. I mean, it just, it’s cool that we do a lot of similar work but come at it from different angles and different training backgrounds.

Dr. Diane: Yeah, it’s always the best, right? It’s always the best to have different spokes that lead to the same wheel, and our wheel being, hey, happy libido and relationships and all those things.

Understanding Emotional Impact on Libido

The Role of Emotions in Sexuality

Dr. Diane: The emotional, you know, just like, let’s dive right in. That emotional component I feel like is really hard so many times, and it’s really hard because I think so many times we’re not thinking about the small little ways that safety or that little thing that our partner said to us in the morning that we just brushed off or we snapped back because of work stress. Like, we’re not always thinking about the impact of that on sexuality in our sex life. So can you just kind of open with that topic and just kind of generally set the frame for us around that importance with libido and these sorts of topics?

Heather: Yeah, for sure. So I think that, you know, sexual energy is life force energy and, you know, it’s not an accident that when we’re kind of like dimming our emotions, such as in depression, one of the symptoms is low libido. And so when we try to compartmentalize or kind of downplay a certain emotion or just exile it, I do internal family systems therapy, so we talk about exiled parts where it’s like, this part, this emotion is not okay, and let’s just banish this one. It creates like a dimming of our life force energy because our emotions are such a huge part of that.

Heather: And that’s not usually the intention, but it’s like when we kind of shut down enough, it’s gonna affect our sex life, and then we’re like, what happened? People are often confused; we don’t put it together, and it wasn’t part of my sex therapy training, you know. It was more something like through working with people, I was like, oh gosh, this is a pattern. Like lots of people are doing this sort of avoiding of emotions and holding it in and not communicating it, and it’s killing their sex life.

Everyday Interactions and Their Effects

Dr. Diane: Yeah, and it’s, I, you know, I think about that, and I think like both things that happen from truly like a sex standpoint, meaning like, oh, maybe a partner sends us a flirtatious text and we don’t text anything back, right? So there’s like that thing around like coming on to me, and all of a sudden, I don’t reciprocate, and then that other person feels hurt. So I think there’s that aspect, and then there’s like all the non-sex-related aspects, right? So like, oh wow, you snapped at me, and like, I’m gonna just pretend like it’s not a big deal, and I’m gonna, it’s not, you know, those kinds of things.

Dr. Diane: So do you find then in this conversation, like, what are, where do we start? How do we start identifying like when we’re dimming the emotions, where, where is that starting point?

Heather: It probably could be anywhere, yeah, just to give you a really clear answer. But I think what I see is like couples will come to me, and it’s like there’s just been a pattern, I would say, of the emotional intimacy shutting down and just living kind of separate lives under the same roof. And so that can start really small, kind of like you said, your partner makes, uh, what the Gottman Relationship Institute would call a bid for attention, you know, and there’s a lot of research on this like bid for attention thing, and it could be tiny.

Heather: It could be like, oh my God, look at the bird out the window, you know, it could be, and your partner either ignores you, like the example you gave, it’s like someone’s trying to flirt, and someone’s just like, I’m uncomfortable, or I’m at work, or you’re always after me this way, and I don’t, you know, whatever it is. And when you’re not connecting in those small ways, that starts to erode the relationship as a whole.

Heather: So it can start very small, and I think also when our partner doesn’t respond, we might not feel safe opening up, or if our partner was judgmental once in a way that really hurt us, and we never addressed it, resolved it, and they don’t get it, then we just shut it down. Then it’s like, well, okay, I’m just not going to talk to you about this because you’re always judging me as a parent, or you’re always judging me for, you know, not speaking up at work or whatever.

Heather: And so then it’s like, okay, we’re just starting to eliminate topic after topic, and now we’re just like functioning. Now we’re talking about how is the weather, right? So now we’re super superficial kind of conversation.

Internal and External Dimming

Dr. Diane: And then also, so when we’re talking about like this dimming concept, I want to go a little bit further because I think this is super important. Are we also talking about like, almost dimming it in ourselves, meaning, example, okay, so I want to say what I mean, just so I make sure the audience is tracking our thoughts here. Tell me if this is what you’re talking about too, so like, for example, like, oh, I like talking about work, and my partner’s not there for me, and they’re telling me I’m not handling it correct, and they’re almost like gaslighting my experience.

Dr. Diane: And then in this example, okay, I’m not going to talk about work, I withdraw, I withdraw, that can affect my libido, but is there also that point where we begin, is like some of the dimming almost like that self-shaming around, oh, I should never talk about this again, right? So is there a secondary layer of emotion there?

Heather: Yeah, it works both ways. It’s kind of your own internal experience of your emotions, and it’s also your partner’s, and it’s kind of the same dynamic, just like one is internal, and one is external. So it could be your partner kind of shaming you or judging you or gaslighting you, and it could be a part of yourself, yes, ourselves, absolutely, where it’s like, oh, I shouldn’t feel this way, or I shouldn’t be so needy, or I shouldn’t, you know, maybe it’s like, I’m too old to be sexual, or I’m past childbearing years, or I had a hysterectomy, and I feel like less of a woman now, or whatever the messaging is.

Heather: And sometimes we don’t even know, like, it’s, I’m pretty unconscious until we like go in there and start poking around a little bit.

Dr. Diane: Yeah, I think that’s really, that knowing, and that’s, it’s such a huge thing. I think that’s why it’s important we have these conversations because I imagine there’s a lot of aha moments happening for people because it is so, these things, I think they start so small, and they can eat away, and it’s like, well, it’s not that big, you know, we gaslight ourselves, be like, alright, it’s not that big of a deal that we’re not on the same page with this, I’m just not gonna bring this up.

Dr. Diane: Which, if that was in isolation, and it was the one and only thing, that, you know, probably not a huge deal, right? Like all, it’s like that just leads to that compounding of so many things, and it just almost starts becoming this new habit, right?

Heather: Yes, absolutely.

Breaking the Cycle and Rebuilding Connection

Starting with Self-Awareness

Dr. Diane: So what I hear in what you’re saying is like, okay, the first step then is becoming aware of the internal dialogue and the interrelational dialogue, correct?

Heather: Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Diane: Okay, and so from there, like, where do people even go from there? Like, how do we begin to say, okay, we’re going to break this habit and get back our connection, get back our libido, get back our confidence, all of those things, where do we go from there?

Heather: I think usually starting with yourself is the right place to start. But I mean, that also can happen if you have a partner who’s like, hey, I want to address this dynamic too, I’m willing to kind of look within myself also and see how I’m contributing to this, awesome, you know, those can be things that are happening at the same time. But if you have a partner that’s just, you know, hey, this is a you issue, or, you know, I don’t feel like I’m doing anything wrong, you can still look at this on your end.

Internal Family Systems Therapy

Heather: And so part of it, I’ll explain internal family systems a little bit because that is a big piece of it. So we have our self-energy, which is the essence of who we are, and it’s unaffected by trauma, and it’s like this infinite spacious energy, and it’s amazing, and it feels great. And then we have our parts, and our parts are like our defense mechanisms or our protective mechanisms, and so they mean well, they’re only trying to like look out for our interest, but it could be kind of wreaking havoc.

Heather: So we have some proactive ones that might be like, I’m going to make a therapy appointment, right, or I’m gonna go see Dr. Diane, or, you know, that are like, let’s do proactive, healthy things. And then we also have firefighter parts that are more reactive, and they’re like, I need another glass of wine, you know, or like, I’m gonna avoid, compartmentalize, or I’m gonna bury my head in the sand on this one.

Heather: And both the manager parts that are proactive and the firefighter parts that are reactive are trying to protect the exiled parts, and the exiled parts are the same for all humans, which is really fascinating. So they are parts that feel like a failure, that feel not good enough, that feel shame, that feel unlovable, that feel like vulnerable to the point of feeling unsafe.

Heather: And so there’s really only like a handful of them, and so even though they’re exiled, it’s almost like they’re indirectly controlling everything because all the protector parts are kind of directing their energy towards like keeping these intolerable feelings at bay, right? But it’s like the more we exile these parts, the more we’re kind of dimming our life force energy and not accepting all the parts of us, right?

Heather: So through bringing in the self-energy, which I think of as almost like the sun, so if you’re new to this, you can just think of it as like, this is like the rays of the sun, and it’s like radiating out good healing energy. And so when the parts can feel that, when they can kind of like bask in the rays of the self-energy, then they can start healing, and then they might trust the self-energy enough to be like, okay, self-energy, you can talk to an exile now, I will allow it.

Heather: And then we are able to start uncompartmentalizing and like creating safety within your own system and like letting your whole life force energy like be present and shine. So that’s, that’s kind of the goal.

Dr. Diane: I love it, and when you’re talking, it reminds me of some of the things I talk to people about, which is like a both-and approach, right? Because I think we think like, okay, well, I either have to live in the fact that I feel like a failure, I feel like I’m not good enough, I feel like an imposter, or I live in like, more like the fun energy of like, oh, I’m successful, I have a great, you know, great relationship, everything is.

Dr. Diane: And what I hear in that, when you’re talking about almost like bringing them all together, it’s like, it’s all of that, both-and, right? Where we can go into those exiled parts and be like, I can feel this, and I can actually feel something that’s completely a little bit opposite at the same time, right?

Heather: That’s absolutely it, and we also have a term for that in IFS called polarized parts. So if you have two parts that are trying to help in totally different ways, we can even feel both of those, and we can support both of those, yes, exactly.

Dr. Diane: Exactly, I think, you know, that’s, I sometimes joke around, and I don’t know if the joke’s the right word, but I sometimes say, like, you know, there’s parts of us that maybe we’re all a little schizophrenic in some way because we have these voices, and these voices sometimes have like, one part might feel sad about something and happy about something else at the same, and yeah, you know, it’s, there’s an element of that where I think there is just this human conditioning of, it’s so easy to think that we’re the only ones feeling this.

Dr. Diane: And it’s like, well, like you said, the exiled parts, everybody has the exiled parts, so, right, I love that.

Communicating with Your Partner

Approaching Difficult Conversations

Dr. Diane: And then also, so in context then of our topic here of libido and of sexuality, another thing that I’m curious about, because, like, in, I know you said something so perfect at the beginning of this, which is like, we have different angles of the same ways or approach of approaching the same things, right? So one of the things I talk to people about when they’re going to tell their partner, have a conversation with their partner about hard things, I talk about like the how, the when, the where, things being like kind of the fundamental components of how we approach that partner, right?

Dr. Diane: So how would you say, are there, is there like a system, I know obviously people can come and learn from you, and that’s kind of your work as a sex therapist, but is there like a generalized system where I’m like, okay, like, I need to tell my partner that we have to have this conversation, I have to be able to share about my day without triggering them, how do I have this conversation, what’s the framework?

Heather: Yeah, I do have several suggestions. The first one is internal, so what I find so interesting, it’s like the buildup in our head is probably like our worst

enemy with having these conversations because my clients will be like, well, I just, you know, I wish I could tell him that, you know, my needs aren’t being met, or just the way he initiates, if he could just do this or that, but like, I don’t know how to say it. I’m like, you just, like the way you just said it to me was perfect.

Heather: So I think that there’s a different framework, it’s like they feel safe saying it to me, they feel relaxed saying it to me, there’s not sort of so much at stake. And so I think when they’re able to kind of like lower the stakes mentally and kind of be like, this could even, this could be a short conversation, this doesn’t have to be like a whole big thing, because when you bring the energy of like, I have to talk to you about something, but like, I don’t know, you might get mad at me, you know, it’s like, that’s not, that’s not really how we want to start.

Heather: So yes, find a good time, you know, like, don’t do it when your partner’s like in the middle of another task or just had like the worst day of their life, but also, I see there being more of an issue when people are like waiting for the perfect time, so I would kind of just be like, make sure it’s not a terrible time, but otherwise, just go for it, you know.

Heather: And then I also encourage people to do a couple things, so create like a safe container, so if this is a new type of conversation, just to kind of be like, you know, hey, I’m gonna share a sexual fantasy with you, or I want to talk about like, how can we initiate in a way that’s like super sexy, so you can say, can we create a judgment-free zone, or like, even if you’re not into something I say, can you just agree not to like tell me I’m a weirdo or something.

Heather: So say what you need, like, create the safe container with each other, like, get on the same page and agree to that. And then I think starting by saying your positive intention, so this is something that the Gottman Institute calls the soften startup, and the research says that it eliminates 90% of escalating fights, like, if you learn one thing, learn the one that’s going to eliminate 90% of fights, you know.

Heather: And so this is what I emphasize a lot with my clients, and it’s real basic, it’s like, don’t come in hot, right, like, don’t come in being like, you know, you never touch me the way I want you to, and, you know, I just wish that you would like listen once in a while, you know, no, that’s not how we’re starting.

Heather: But if it’s like, yeah, I want us to feel like we can talk openly about things because I think that’s going to help create some intimacy, you know, or, I love that you are such a great listener, or once we’re into sex, I feel so great to have such a great time, and I would like to be able to like get in the mood more and talk about like, how do we do like mental foreplay.

Heather: So it’s kind of like bringing in a compliment, stating a positive intention, you know, letting the person know like, hey, this is coming from a positive place, but, and it is, right, so even though there might be an angry protector part, or there might be a scared protector part, you know, that’s, we’re kind of doing some of that self-work first helps, so it’s like, let’s manage our own emotions first, and then be able to come in with more of our self-energy, more of that confidence and connectedness.

Dr. Diane: Yeah, the manager self-energy, I hear so much because I think that’s such a big thing, right, it’s like, if we’re coming in hot, and like, we might feel hot, so basically, it’s what I hear that advice is like, take care of yourself first, if you’re feeling like so emotionally charged, see what you can do to burn through that emotion to keep, so you can come in, you know, with still the same intention, but actually have it well received.

Heather: Yeah, exactly, because I mean, the energy, I’m big on energy, and I’m guessing you probably are too, you know, it’s like, that energy can be felt, even if you’re kind of like saying the right words, quote-unquote, it’s like, if you’re feeling uncomfortable, that is going to come through.

Heather: And I would also say, like, remember, this person really likes you, like, you were the person they picked to, you know, be with, so, yeah, I think that’s a really important reminder.

Common Patterns in Sexual Challenges

Identifying Emotional Patterns

Dr. Diane: What other things, as far as any other, say, patterns, like, are there other patterns that you see show up a lot from an emotional standpoint when people are experiencing any sort of low libido or other sexual dysfunction?

Heather: Yeah, so some of this is what I talk about in my intimacy audit, which I will share with your audience, is what are some of the common patterns. A lot of times, people come to me, and they think it’s just like, oh, low libido, libido, libido, and yes, sometimes it is libido, a lot of times, which is, it also, its own complex thing.

Heather: And sometimes it’s self-censorship, you know, sometimes it’s like, the sexual thoughts are there, but they’re just like, not exiting your mouth, they’re not, they’re not coming out, they’re staying in there. And then sometimes it’s like, okay, the sexual thoughts are there, and maybe they’re even coming out, but you’re just kind of getting your wires crossed, you know.

Heather: Like, I’ve had clients that kind of come in, and they say, well, I’m attracted to my spouse, and they say they’re attracted to me, but we’re like, not really having sex. I was like, oh, that’s so interesting, people are just so fascinated, yeah, I really love humans.

Heather: And so it’s like, okay, what is the disconnect, you know, and it could be anything from, you know, religious upbringing or conservative upbringing, where it’s like, oh, I’m not supposed to do that, to, you know, the patriarchy and gender conditioning, where it’s like, I’m the woman, you know, a guy is supposed to come to me, or it could be like, maybe you’re into other women, and you’re like, I don’t know how to approach because I think conditioned that a guy is supposed to come to me, there’s no guy here, and I have to overcome that.

Heather: So, you know, there’s, I think, all of us have some things that we probably need to like overcome when it comes to creating the sex life that we really want, but it’s doable, you know, and that’s where having a coach, having a therapist, having a good friend you could talk to, having a support group, you know, it’s like, find somewhere where you can get rid of any kind of shame or stigma or beliefs that are no longer serving you because those things do tend to exist in the shadows, right.

Heather: And when we shine some light on it, and we realize we can be accepted just as we are, and when we can do some of that internal family systems, you know, shadow work, and un-exiling the exiles, that’s how we get to a place of feeling really confident and whole in our sex lives.

The Role of Sex Education

Dr. Diane: I’m gonna take us a different direction because you’re making me think of something that came up in a conversation with a friend recently, which is, it comes up here and there around like, just like sex education, because I feel like when you’re talking about shadow, right, it’s like, to me, it’s like, so much of shadow, of course, we get as adults, but so much of that comes in childhood, and it’s like, things that are said to us, and the way certain things are defined.

Dr. Diane: And yeah, in childhood, like, you know, sex education was basically purely about procreation, and that was all that was really taught, and there’s so much stigma, and there is still so much stigma, I think, you know, still these days, I think a little bit more historically, but still these days around a woman, and a woman being promiscuous has a different sort of social connotation than a man being promiscuous, and it’s like, so women are not supposed to explore in the same way.

Dr. Diane: So there’s all these ways that we are just taught that are encoded into us as that shadow, so yeah, what do you think the solution is, like, what do you think, like, like, do you think we should be talking more in like, you know, grade school, high school, like around, hey, please, do I think that’s gonna happen anytime soon?

Heather: So I hope eventually we will get there. I mean, I partially think it’s people like you and me doing it more like privately in our own businesses and like, you know, than people just like trying to learn from porn or their friends, you know. But it is, it’s a tough political landscape, and, you know, when I’m talking about these shadow parts, like, a lot, a lot of this does come from the culture, so it’s like a cultural exile.

Heather: So it’s like, we have our own internal system, but there’s also parts of the culture and exiled aspects culturally, so I think that’s important to realize too, it’s like, if you’re dealing with some of this, you didn’t go create this in a vacuum, like, it’s not like, oh, you’re only to blame, it’s like, you grew up in a context where my sex education was like, be afraid, be very afraid, you get pregnant, and you will ruin your life, and you’ll be shamed, and, you know, you’re gonna get diseases, and you’re gonna get HIV, and you’re going to die.

Heather: And it’s just like, there was no like, oh, here’s all the health benefits of of sex, or here’s all the health benefits of orgasm, here’s even what an orgasm is, here’s what a clitoris is, this is part of your body, you should probably know about it, yes, none of that, right?

Heather: Yes, and so it’s like, that’s the stuff where like, people need to, podcasts, honestly, are the best place to be because it’s the only place we’re not censored, so people like you and me can share on our podcast about like, actually, what is helpful to talk about, where it’s like, I can’t say this stuff on Instagram, you know.

Dr. Diane: Yeah, yeah, well, I think that’s a perfect wrap-up and lead-in, I know you and I can talk all day, so, so everybody, make sure to, you know, to download and support Heather’s podcast, so we can have her be the winner and have her back.

Connecting with Heather Shannon

Resources and Next Steps

Dr. Diane: I want to make sure that we have a moment to tell people how to get a hold of you and yeah, about your intimacy audits, and can you just tell us about all those things?

Heather: Yeah, absolutely, so you can check out my intimacy audit, it is all about helping you figure out what patterns apply to you, so when it comes to your sex life, if you’re like, hey, we’re not having sex, I don’t know what’s going on, I don’t know how to fix it, which, by the way, I’ve been there before I was a sex therapist, and I wish I knew what I know now.

Heather: You know, it’s gonna help you figure that out, so we have a checklist that will kind of help you pinpoint, is it libido, is it problems initiating and crosswires, is it self-censorship, and there’s some emails that’ll walk you through it, so that, you know, you’ll know what’s going on, and then we’ll start offering some solutions in the emails as well, so we’re not just going to help you identify only the problem.

Heather: So that’s a great place to start, if you go to my website, you can grab that, it’s heathershannon.co, and there’s a popup on the homepage, so it’ll just pop up after a few seconds, sign up, and you’ll get it in your email inbox.

Dr. Diane: So everything you guys, in those show notes are on this podcast page, we’ll have everything there as far as links of how to get a hold of Heather, about how to join the intimacy audit program, get the checklist, all these amazing things, so thank you, thank you, thank you so much for being with me today, I really appreciate you.

Heather: Thank you, Diane, I appreciate you too, this was fun.

Closing Remarks

Dr. Diane: And everybody, we’re signing off here, another episode of the lounge, it’s been so great to spend time with you all, as always, and this is just your friendly reminder to always stay classy, always stay sexy, and always be a little badass, see you next time. Thank you for listening to the Libido Lounge, please don’t keep me a secret, please share this with your friends. You can find me on YouTube, on Instagram, and check out our Modern Libido Club for so much more!