Libido Lounge: Why Long-Time Couples Stop Wanting Sex (And How to Fix It)

Introduction to the Episode

Dr. Diane: Welcome to the Libido Lounge, where we focus on all things love, lust, and libido. We believe that fabulous sex is as important to health as exercise and good food. Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode on the Lounge! I’m your host, Dr. Diane, and I’m thrilled to introduce you to Tara and EJ Kerwin. They are relationship coaches, a married couple, and this particular couple knows so much about something we’ve talked about on the show before, which is desire discrepancy—what to do when you are in a relationship and your passion has maybe fallen to the wayside, and one person has much more or less desire than another. So, it’s super common, it’s something that I know I work with people all the time on, and I’m so excited to be introducing you to this couple today. So, welcome to the show, you guys!

Tara: Thank you for having us, it’s cool to be here!

EJ: It’s so exciting to be here, and also I love this topic because, again, we operate a couples counseling facility, and I would say 80% of our couples come in with intimacy navigation, but a big piece of that is that higher desire, lower desire partner, and how do we get them trying to be on the same page so that they can have a satisfying sexual relationship for them.

Dr. Diane: Absolutely, absolutely. I like what you said too. I think one of the first things in my mind to help people understand is that this is normal, this is a common problem, this is not a weird thing that is so uncommon that people don’t have strategies for how to deal with this.

Understanding Desire Discrepancy

Identifying the Issue

Dr. Diane: So, in going down this topic, can you just kind of set the framework for if somebody maybe is a step before this, like maybe they haven’t even identified that there is a desire discrepancy, but maybe they’ve just seen that their passion is kind of falling to the wayside, or maybe it’s creating some tension for them and their partner. What’s the beginning opening conversation around libido and passion and this topic that you would ask people to start with?

EJ: I mean, I think the first thing that we oftentimes see is almost unrelated to sexuality, and it’s just frustration. I think the couples come in to see us, and their communication is breaking down, and they’re frustrated with one another, and there’s just this overall angsty feeling between the two of them. In the background is oftentimes the fact that their intimate life has gone offline, but because they don’t have a framework to talk about it, and to talk about it especially in a healthy way, they’ve just sort of pushed it aside, and everything else has become the main symptoms.

Tara: And I would say, because of this model we developed, we really develop these healthy communication skills before we get to our intimacy piece, but we’re always talking about intimacy throughout our journey with couples. Usually, what you hear is couples don’t talk about their sex life, they just don’t. It used to be good, and maybe now they have kids, or they’re going through middle age and hormone stuff, but no one ever talked about it. There was just this expectation that it would still be okay. So, we really try to help build the communication skills first and the emotional safety first before really diving into each other’s personal feelings, because it’s very vulnerable to talk about that.

Tara: And trust me, we’ll have couples come in, and they’re like, we just want to talk about why we’re not having sex anymore, and we’re like, well, we got a whole model for this because you can’t just talk about it in that way without having an understanding of certain skills you need to empathize with each other so you can have that compassionate conversation. Because at the end of the day, they both want the same thing—they want to have a really great intimate relationship.

EJ: Well, and oftentimes, the way that they are talking about it is in really unhealthy poking, maybe using humor, but it’s not really funny to the other person. So, like Tara says, they’re just not communicating about it in a healthy way whatsoever. And I’m not sure, Dr. Diane, if you’ve had this happen, but when we do start talking about higher desire, lower desire, we will have partners who literally get undressed in other rooms so their partner doesn’t see any skin, so that they don’t have to have that feeling of overwhelm, like, oh my gosh, he wants to be intimate tonight, or she wants to be intimate tonight. They hide out from each other, and we’re like, wow, that must be so lonely in that place.

Tara: Most couples are very lonely in the intimacy realm personally, and so just being able to give them the safe space to talk about it, that’s the number one. I know you said, what’s the first point? Just having that safe space where they can actually say what they need to say in a way that won’t feel judged or criticized.

Dr. Diane: Yeah, I’ve seen that too. I’ve seen situations where one partner will purposely go to bed maybe 15-20 minutes before they’re ready because they want to make sure they’re either asleep or they look like they’re asleep before their partner comes in the room. So, similar types of things, right? Hiding. And I think what you said is really important, that oftentimes couples are wanting the same thing.

Common Goals in Relationships

Dr. Diane: I think about that when I think about desire mismatch. I often think about, okay, well, what is the fundamental thing that partners want when it comes to desire? It probably breaks down on some levels to some things that overlap, like connection, love, care, and these feelings. So, is that some of the things, like, do you find when it comes to desire and libido and sexuality that it feels like couples think that they have this discrepancy, but when you break it down, oftentimes there’s not as much of a discrepancy as they might think?

EJ: I mean, I think that in the broad sense, they are connected in what they want. They want to have a connected relationship, they want to be able to communicate about things in healthy ways, they want to, on some level, meet each other’s needs. It’s just that oftentimes the needs are very different, and what it’s going to take to get them into an intimately connected relationship oftentimes is about broadening the definition of intimacy—that for one, it’s much more physically based, and for the other person, it’s more emotionally based. And, like Tara said, first getting some of their basic communication skills cleaned up so that they can actually listen to one another, so that they can get into what’s a really nuanced conversation.

Tara: Yeah, and we know how vulnerable this conversation can be and how alone they’ve probably been in their suffering around this for however long. So, we really get their story about their own knowledge of their body and what they learned about sex from their parents. We get a whole background, and now their partner gets to sit with them and hear, like, oh, I really didn’t learn anything, or I was told not to masturbate, that masturbation was bad. We try to understand all of the limiting beliefs they have around intimacy and their own body and pleasure and desire before even kind of starting. That way, we can understand where they’re at and if they’re in a box. That opens up this idea, like, my gosh, there’s so much more to explore that we haven’t even thought about. We were kind of in this box, and I feel like that’s a breath of fresh air when we start to go down that road for couples.

Tara: Because it’s not about that they’re not having sex, it’s just about that they’ve never had this narrative around, like, how do we have amazing intimacy, how do we really please each other, how do we satisfy each other, how do I satisfy myself, what do I like, what do you like? So, we do a lot of exercises having partners just focus on one thing and putting safety containers in, so it doesn’t go farther than what the other partner might like. There’s a lot of different tools and interventions we do when we are helping a couple start off with creating a whole new narrative for their intimate life.

Breaking Down Myths About Intimacy

Redefining Intimacy

Dr. Diane: I love it, and I want to go back to something you said here a second ago, EJ, because you had said that there is almost like broadening the word of intimacy. So, that to me sounds like one of the steps we’re talking about with reprogramming the relationship and the desire discrepancy. One of the steps could be breaking down the misconceptions or the myths or the stories that we have about our sexuality. So, I hear in some of what you both are saying that there’s this myth or misconception around what is intimacy. Let’s redefine it. And, Tara, I hear what you’re saying almost fits into a different myth or misconception, like, okay, well, we don’t have to replay this sexual script where we do X, we do Y, we do Z, we play out the same story. There’s actually something beyond that, and we can make this safe to talk about.

Dr. Diane: So, my question, with all of that being said, is what, beyond those couple of things, could we say are common myths or misconceptions that you see with couples you work with around libido and sexuality?

Tara: “He or she’s just not into me anymore,” right? Like, “They just don’t like me anymore, they don’t even want me to touch them, or we haven’t touched in forever.” Just this assumption that the partner is just not into them, and they’ve been sitting with that for some couples for decades.

EJ: And I think one of the most destructive myths is that if your intimacy breaks down, there’s something wrong with you, your relationship, or your partner. It’s this idea that our suffering means I’m the only one. Everybody else out there is having a great sex life or is very connected with their partner because I see them at dinner parties, and they seem like they’re having a hell of a time. And that makes us think, wow, we’re just broken. Because we’ve seen hundreds and hundreds of couples over the years, we understand that it is absolutely not just normal but almost guaranteed that at some point, your intimate relationship with your partner is going to face some struggles. If you believe you’re the only one, that’s a huge wall to get over because then it’s like, I don’t want to tell anybody, why would I ever want to open up and get support around that? It’s just too vulnerable.

Tara: And one of the biggest ones I’m thinking about is, “We have kids, and kids take priority, so we’ve kind of put our intimate life in the background for now until the kids grow.” It’s one of the most destructive things you can do for your relationship because you always have to make your partner the priority, no matter what. Even if you have kids, you’re going out on date nights at least once a week, even if it’s just removing yourself and going to another room for an hour. Not cultivating that relationship with your partner because the idea is that the kids take priority—that’s a big myth.

Dr. Diane: Yeah, so starting to come back to putting the relationship as, hey, this is the top priority, right? Beyond all else, and all the other things start falling into line from a standpoint of, we can keep this strong, then we become the foundation, stronger to address all these other things in life.

Hormonal Changes and Communication

Tara: I will say this too, for women, me included, going through my 40s and totally feeling very different than I did in my 20s and 30s hormonally. Right now, I’m only having my menstrual cycle like once every four months, so I know it’s all happening, and it just feels different and scary. I’m so glad I can let EJ in on that process because if I didn’t, he’s going to be assuming that I just don’t care anymore. But no, it’s just this, like, I have to find out how do I do all the healthy coping skills that I need to make sure that I feel somewhat balanced, and that we’re spending time together. Even if I don’t have that desire in my body like I used to, talking about it at least makes me feel emotionally connected to EJ, even if we’re not engaging in physical sex all the time. It’s having the conversation, especially for me going through all of my stuff right now, it’s super important because I don’t think he would know how alone in it I feel and how uncomfortable it is for me. Like, I don’t want this to happen. Someone give me a pill, I’d love to take it, like, give me a shot of testosterone, please!

EJ: And I just think that speaks to how complex it is, and that the work that we’ve done, because so much of the work we do with couples comes out of not just research and experience working with couples but also our own personal relationship. Knowing that getting through our intimacy and working towards being more consistently intimately connected, there’s so many facets to how that’s happened. Some of it has nothing to do with sex and intimacy—it’s just creating an environment where Tara feels safe, and where we communicate in healthy ways about complex things. We had to go through all of that, and then building emotional safety for us is a big thing, that we both feel safe to be who we are.

EJ: And then there’s all these layers, like, yeah, then Tara’s got to find a way to talk to me about stuff that, in heterosexual relationships, there’s no way I have zero idea—not just of the physiological stuff, but then her experience of it. What does it mean physically to go from a period every 28-30 days to every 90 days? We have to have a real solid base of communication where she can find a way to help me understand that, because if she’s expecting me to just get that, it’s impossible. Then we’re going to be very separate in it, and I’m going to make up my own assumptions. I’m going to think of a hundred other reasons that things are the way they are, other than the way that she’s actually feeling.

Tara: And when I’m hearing you talk, and I see a lot of our couples that come in for couples counseling, it’s just this feeling of powerlessness. Like, I’m powerless to this hormone, I wish I could inject it into my eyeballs, whatever I need to. And if EJ and I didn’t talk about it, he would feel powerless in his own way, right? And now we’re just on separate islands, maybe with a megaphone once in a while, like, hey, can you? But, you know, just separate. So, it’s trying to find the conversations to have so you can feel connected, because we truly believe emotional intimacy is very connected to physical intimacy.

Building Emotional and Physical Intimacy

Nonsexual Affection

Tara: We work with a lot of couples on nonsexual affection because there are couples that come in, and one person within that couple is like, all they want is sex, I don’t just want a hug. So, we introduce the idea of nonsexual affection, and maybe just kissing for the sake of kissing, but not going anywhere else, and just handholding when you’re out, or little notes. Just find ways to express love that make you feel connected.

Dr. Diane: Yeah, I like to say that foreplay is not the thing we do the five minutes before the big event, right? It’s everything that happens in between. It’s everything you’re talking about, like the little note, the handholding—all of that is actually foreplay. I think it’s really unfortunate that we toss that to the backside, like that’s not important. It’s actually one of the most important things.

Personal Strategies for a Strong Relationship

Balancing a Blended Family and Work

Dr. Diane: So, I want to wrap up with our time today, and then I’ll tell people how to get a hold of you. But I want to wrap up with a final question, because with you guys, reading a little bit about your background and knowing that you have a blended family, four kids, work together, these are common things, right? Whether or not couples are working together, have a blended family, have kids, or don’t have kids, but there’s so many different ways that you guys are integrated into your life. So, my question for you, if you don’t mind sharing something personal, is what sort of couple strategies have you found, with how much everything in your world is together—your work, your kids, your entire life is so blended—what have you found as your top couple strategies to really make sure your relationship stays strong?

EJ: We have to just be constantly connecting and talking, even if it feels like there’s nothing to talk about, or if it’s just a matter of having a cup of coffee for four minutes in the morning before the day launches. To us, that’s the most important thing. And then, for me personally, it’s continuing to cultivate empathy for Tara, even if I’m not feeling that at all. I think that’s a big thing that couples struggle with, that sometimes when we inevitably face a lot of difficult things, or we disagree, or feel disconnected, it’s just, in my head, being like, this is the person I love, even though I’m frustrated, I want to be as empathetic and caring as I can be. That’s because it’s very easy to get caught in my own repetitive thought patterns that pull me away from her. So, it’s so important to figure out ways to keep my heart open, even in the times where I want to close it off or avoid.

Tara: And can I just share, so, like, on Saturday night, we always try to have, we don’t get to go out much because we have kids, and they’re with us every weekend, and we’re like the sleepover house, right? So, all of the kids are at our house. But, like, on Saturday night, we always have these deck of couples cards, and these were the intimacy version. So, we sat outside, had a glass of wine, probably asked each other like 15 different questions. One had you whispering in your partner’s ear what you want to do, and it kind of was some foreplay that maybe or maybe not we could get busy later, depending on how late the kids go to bed from the sleepover. But it was just, there was no pressure, we were just exploring these questions, and if it happened later, great, if it didn’t, it didn’t matter. We still had that hour outside by our pool, and it felt really nice.

Tara: And I will say, the more that EJ and I communicate about anything and everything in a way that feels non-reactive, it’s like, organically, your desire increases. Instead of EJ getting defensive now because my sex drive is so low, he’s like, what is that like for you, honey, help me understand? And I could just say, what’s it like for you to be really attracted to me, and, you know, seven out of ten times, my frisky scale is freaking -10? We get to ask each other those questions where before we didn’t. So, just EJ being more open and less reactive, and then me feeling safer about expressing my vulnerable feelings around what I’m going through—that has been a game-changer for us. And we have to model what we preach, so yes, we have to do it all.

Dr. Diane: Thank you for sharing that inside scoop. I really hear in that, too, is, one, yes, I can see that and feel that, and all of that makes sense. And two, even from a science perspective, we know from research that we generate oxytocin, which you guys, I’m sure, are doing in those intimate poolside moments. What’s so interesting about oxytocin is we generate it, and then the body wants more of it, and more of it, and more of it. So, what you’re saying around, oh, we do this, and then it makes things stronger, we want more of that, and that could lead to something, but it doesn’t have to. It can actually even increase the desire just in that.

Closing and Resources

Relationship Renovation at Home Program

Dr. Diane: Thank you both so much for spending time with me today. We’re going to have everything about how to get in touch with you in the show notes, but I know you guys wanted to mention your Relationship Renovation at Home program, which I checked out online. It looks super accessible, super thorough, tons of content. Can you tell us a little bit about that, and then we’ll leave that in the show notes for everybody?

EJ: Absolutely. We put it together because we had so much success in our in-office programs, and we wanted people to be able to do it at home. We know that people have a lot of challenges getting to therapy sometimes. So, it’s a series of lessons, it has videos, it has behavioral prompts. If you start the program and two weeks have gone by and you haven’t logged in, you get an email saying, hey, it’s important to make your relationship a priority. It has lessons that you work with your partner at home, and then we’re really excited—in the coming year, we’re going to be adding a layer of coaching in with it as well.

Tara: A lot of couples get to a point like, what do we do right here? And we’re like, yeah, the video probably isn’t enough. So, more and more people are asking for coaching, and we have a team of therapists that are trained in our Relationship Renovation model. So, we’re going to be able to offer online coaching sessions to help couples get through the at-home program for those who want it. Not everybody needs it, but yeah, it’s kind of like we took our in-office model and made it at home. It’s about a four-to-six-month commitment, but it’s really fun, and it’s about couples being curious about each other, trying to learn. Because they come in, they’re like, oh, we know everything about each other, and we’re like, really, do you? A lot of people around the world have expressed how amazing it’s been, so yeah, we’re grateful for that.

Dr. Diane: It’s so great to hear. Well, thank you both so much for spending time with me today. Thank you, everybody, for listening. Again, we’ll have all this information in the show notes, as well as how to get this at-home course off their website. This is Dr. Diane from mylibidodoc.com signing off, reminding you to always stay classy, always stay sexy, and always be a little badass-y. You can find me on YouTube, on Instagram, and check out our Modern Libido Club for so much more!