Most couples think they have a communication problem. They don’t. They have an emotional safety problem—and until you fix that, every fight, every apology, and every attempt at closeness will keep falling flat.
In this episode of My Libido Doc, Dr. Diane Mueller sits down with Gottman-certified marriage coach Kameran Alareqi to expose why the average couple gets only four minutes of real alone time a day (nowhere near the 90 minutes research says you need) and how that slow starvation of connection turns attraction into roommate mode. Kameran breaks down her “playing baseball” system for divorce-proofing a marriage: treating every emotional bid like a pitch you either turn toward or strike out on, running the bases of safety, connection, and emotional intimacy before you ever reach the sex that actually feels good. She gets specific about what happens in your nervous system during a fight, why “I’m not attracted anymore” is often just “I don’t feel safe,” and the exact moves that let you repair—even if you’ve been stuck in the same conflict loop for years.
You won’t want to miss this if you’ve ever walked away from a fight with your spouse still raw, wondering how to apologize in a relationship in a way that actually rebuilds trust after you hurt your partner—or if you’re tired of half-hearted “I’m sorrys” that never land.
About Kameran Alareqi
Kameran is a Gottman certified marriage coach, the host of The Married and Connected Podcast, and the founder of the Recognizing Potential Coaching Program. In this program, Kameran meets monogamous couples where they’re at to help them strengthen their marriage by coaching them to deepen connection, improve communication, and apply tools needed to create the healthy marriage they envision and desire. https://substack.com/@marriedandconnected IG: www.instagram.com/married.and.connected
YouTube: www.youtube.com/@marriedandconnected Join my Skool Community: https://www.skool.com/married-connected-4920/about Buy my book- Connected To Me: The Blueprint: https://a.co/d/0a3d2hPx My podcast: Married and Connected found anywhere you get your favorite podcasts
Table of Contents
How to Apologize in a Relationship and Rebuild Trust After You Hurt Your Partner Part 1
Dr. Diane: The average American couple spends four minutes alone together per day. But scientists and researchers say that it takes a minimum of 90 minutes per week in order to have a strong connected marriage. 4 times 7 is not 90. So this is where we’re at. If you don’t give that time to your partner, that’s when they feel like their skin is being ripped off their body. It comes down to a system that I have basically coined called playing baseball. Most marriages that have a communication problem, quote unquote, don’t actually have a communication problem. They have an emotional safety problem. I like to say that also marriages have a half-life. You could fight every single day of your marriage and still be happy if you repair well. Welcome to another episode of the Libido Lounge. I’m your host, Dr. Diane Mueller and I have a really fun guest today, Kameran Alleriki who is a marriage coach, a Gottman certified marriage coach and she’s host of the Married and Connected podcast. I’m really excited about this guest because she works with a lot of what we work with on the show which is monogamous couples really helping them to strengthen their marriage. One of the first things we’re going to talk about is this concept of divorce proofing and how we can and if we can divorce proof our marriage. So we’re going to talk about that communication. We’re going to talk about your nervous system and what’s happening to your body during a fight and how to work with your body to actually have better results when you have conflict and so much more. So really exciting stuff. Welcome to the show today, Kameran.
Kameran: Thanks. I’m really excited to be here.
Dr. Diane: Same same. And let’s jump right into it. So I want to talk about divorce proofing because you talk in your work about divorce proofing marriage which sounds like a really bold promise. So what is this? Can you walk us through what this actually means and is it really possible to actually divorce proof marriage?
Kameran: Yes, it is 100% possible. I have done it myself. I have helped hundreds of couples do this. And the way that this works is it comes down to a system that I have basically coined called playing baseball. Playing baseball in your marriage. This is how this works. So, I’ve actually been divorced twice and then reconciled with my second husband. And so, the way that this works is, and this is if you run the bases correctly, this will work. If you try to go from like batting to second base, that’s where you get a little bit messed up and it’s in the weeds and it doesn’t work out right. So, the way that this works is anytime your partner comes to you and they’re talking to you, they are batting. Okay? You are batting, excuse me. They’re pitching, you are batting. And this could be anything from, “Hey, I need help. Hey, I’m really struggling with life. Hey, I don’t think our marriage is where I want it to be. I don’t think our sex life is where we want it to be.” To, “Hey, I saw a bird today.” Okay, now here’s the thing. These are called emotional bids. They are pitching. You are batting. If they tell you, “Hey, I saw a bird today.” And your response is, “Okay, like you don’t care,” then basically that bat that you just had just falls flat. Falls right in front of your feet. Okay? It’s not going to go anywhere. Then if you say something snarky like, “Who cares?” Or, “Okay, what’s for dinner?” Something like that. Guess what? You still strike out. You go back to the dugout. Here’s where people miss this. If you’re not turning towards your partner at least 80% of the time, you’re going back to the dugout. And the problem is, and this is where we start to get into the weeds and start to grow apart, is that when you are batting and you’re striking out all the time and going back to the dugout, it’s more and more and more time in between times that you get to bat because now your partner doesn’t feel safe with you. They don’t feel safe to come talk to you about anything. Okay? So, let’s say you master it, though. Then you get to run to first base. If you look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, first base is safety. Physical, financial, emotional, spiritual, sexual, all the safety. Okay? Can your partner come to you about anything? And you’re going to respond to them. You’re going to provide safety. Do they have access to the bank accounts? Do they know what’s coming in? You’re not keeping secrets. You’re not, you know, there’s no dishonesty. That kind of thing. Let’s say you master that. Then you get to run to second base. That’s connection. This is where people often again strike out. Go back to the dugout. Men and women connect differently. A lot of times men are going to connect through shared activities. Women are going to connect through open-ended conversation. All those questions that you asked when you were dating, yeah, you still have to ask those because your partner is not the same person that they were a year ago, 5 years ago, etc. Third base is emotional intimacy. Do you know your partner and know them well? Do you have a spec sheet in your phone of ring size, gifts they want, their favorites, their dislikes, all of that kind of stuff? Do they know that no matter what happens that you’re going to have their back? Do they respect you enough and do you respect them enough to consider each other no matter what the case may be? That kind of thing. Then if you have all three of those, that’s where your expertise comes in. That’s when we have the mind-blowing sex that we can have that we really want and enjoy because we’re connecting through it and it’s not just sex where you wake up the next morning and be like, “Wait, I was looking for something in that and I didn’t get it.” So divorce proofing your marriage comes down to basically running those bases.
Dr. Diane: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And even like what I talk about in my work, libido and sex, I really talk about everything you’re talking about because I think we isolate oftentimes libido to just be like the sex part. But what I see is that it and I know you do too. It’s everything that’s leading up to that. So all of those bases are actually in it. My question for you is like because I know people are hearing things such as, okay, well, we’re going to respond positively to this bid, right? We’re responding positively to this pitch. So we’re turning towards our partner as you said in those things and you said 80%. So how if people are going to take a step back and say like judge their success with this to say am I doing this well? Am I actually turning towards my partner enough times to outweigh the times where I mess up and say don’t respond positively to their bids? Like are you recommending people take a step back and analyze this somehow? Like how do I know I’m turning towards my partner 80%. How do people begin to workshop their own relationship to say is this an area where I’m doing well or is this an area where I need to put more effort and energy.
Kameran: Sure. Yeah. I’m a really big fan of objective reflection all the time. All the time. So the way that this is going to work is when you are at the end of every day start asking yourself how or if you’re just starting this reflection process ask yourself does my partner ever tell me that I don’t listen? Do they say you never listen to me or something like that? If that’s a yes, you’re not turning towards their bids enough. Do they tell you that you love your phone more than you love them? If that’s the case, you’re not present enough. So, most likely you’re missing things that they’re saying. Do they tell you? So, think about the things that they tell you. Think see things like you’re always on your phone. You never listen. Hey, did you hear what I was saying? Hey, do you you know, things like that. You can also look at if they say things like, “You don’t care. You don’t care what I’m saying to you or you don’t care about me.” Those kinds of things. If you plan a date or if you’re not going on dates at all, that’s another issue. And it doesn’t have to be like this extravagant thing. But if they’re saying things like, “I need more from you. I want more out of our relationship. I feel disconnected.” Things like that, there’s a lack of turning towards at some point.
Dr. Diane: So it sounds like kind of the activity right then is at the end of the day just making the intention to analyze the day and just take a second a few minutes to reflect on the day and say okay how did my partner respond when I said this how did I respond when they said that and you’re just kind of taking account of any of those interactions right?
Kameran: Yeah and even if you’re like if you’re sitting there and you’re like well I think I did ask them just ask your partner and be like hey I was listening to this podcast today and this is what a marriage coach said, “Do you feel like I turn towards you or do you feel like the ball’s dropped?” Just ask, but also be willing to hear their answer because it may not be the one you want.
Apologizing After a Fight with Your Spouse: Why Safety Comes First
Dr. Diane: So as you talk about these four bases right and as we’re talking about building say divorce proofing relationship do you find that there’s any one thing more than others that and I say this of course with understanding like these are all important but you say there’s like one thing more important than anything else to really help the marriage thrive or if it’s not done that would actually lead to the decimation of the marriage.
Kameran: I would say safety is the most important because a lot of times people couples will come to me and they’ll say, “We have a communication problem. We just don’t communicate or we’re just not compatible.” You’re never going to be compatible. Like compatibility is constantly changing. So, I mean, there may be seasons where you need more of something, they need less of something. Like, you’re always changing. So, I don’t really buy into the whole compatibility thing, but I really do think that most marriages that have a communication problem, quote unquote, don’t actually have a communication problem. They have an emotional safety problem where they can’t they don’t feel like they can talk to their partner without having to walk on eggshells or they don’t feel like they can talk to their partner at all without being dismissed or minimized or invalidated or something like that.
Dr. Diane: So, what I’m wondering about in that is when people say things to their partner or maybe to their relationship coach, such as, “Gosh, I’m just not that attracted to my partner anymore.” Do you think that sometimes when we feel as humans that we’re not attracted to our partner anymore, that we’re actually feeling like all of a sudden that we’re maybe not it’s not all of a sudden, but we’re actually feeling consciously or subconsciously that we’re not feeling like safe and regulated around that person? Could I’m not attracted anymore actually be I’m not regulated anymore.
Kameran: Absolutely. And it could also be I’m disconnected. I’m so far disconnected that I have so much we call it negative sentiment override where you have all you can think about is oh they didn’t take the trash out today. Not they must have forgotten like there’s no benefit of the doubt being given. There’s no connection at the end of the day. The average American couple spends four minutes alone together per day. But scientists and researchers say that it takes a minimum of 90 minutes per week in order to have a strong connected marriage. So I’m not I don’t do math. I don’t numbers and I are not friends. But four times seven is not 90. So this is where we’re at. So yeah, absolutely. That attraction is a living breathing thing that you have to really pour into. And if you’re not safe, you’re not going to be attracted to a person that you don’t feel safe with, that you can’t talk to, that you don’t want to be around.
Dr. Diane: So, I feel like some listeners might be going back and thinking about times where maybe they had one night stands or just dated somebody for, you know, a very short time period and still had some sort of, you know, mindblowing sex, that sort of thing. So I want to address that like you know at what point are we saying with safety that it’s necessary when we have these times where people are having you know one night stands or these very short relationships that don’t have that but yet are able to have this really profoundly intimate experience. Can you talk about that that discrepancy a little bit?
Kameran: Yeah. So, that’s chemistry. For about the first two years of your relationship, you’re running solely on chemistry and it’s basically attracted to their insecure attachment. So, you there’s a polarity there and it’s like magnets. So you just are stuck together and that that’s what that is. That’s what you’re running on. This is where So we have there’s five cycles of a relationship. Five stages. The honeymoon stage is that right there. Oh my gosh, they’re amazing. And all of their quirks and all of their little weirdnesses, you know, all their things that they do, even like the way that they hold their spoon is absolutely adorable and they are the most wonderful thing that ever, you know, landed on the face of the earth. And then you get married possibly or you get into a long-term relationship and you enter the power struggle stage. And once you enter the power struggle stage, that’s where chemistry starts to kind of settle down a little bit and you start really seeing this person for who they really are versus the fantasy and that, you know, the veil is a little is lifted and that’s when you start thinking, “Oh my god, if they hold their spoon like that one more time, I’m going to choke them.” So all of the quirks that they had before that were so cute, they’re not cute anymore. And so now you’re looking at this from a completely different lens. It’s like the rosecolored glasses have been taken off and you’re actually seeing reality. And that’s where the power struggle stage starts. And that’s often where couples will either get help or they will figure it out on their own or they’ll divorce is in that power struggle stage.
Dr. Diane: Yeah, that’s really helpful. Before we go on, I’m going to ask you more about this power struggle stage and really how to work with this, how to fix this if there is a power struggle. But before I ask you this next question, I want to make sure everybody knows about one of my favorite ways that we actually see in research and in testimonial to help couples stay more connected, and that is by the pump. So, I’m going to tell you about these pumps, which one of the things about these pumps for men is that men are finding that they can either lower their dose of Viagra or even sometimes get off of it and have a lot more confidence with strong erections. And this is for people that don’t even identify with having some sort of problem, right? That are just having some sort of imbalance and are saying, “Oh, I would like to connect with my wife more. I would like to have stronger erections.” or it could be somebody that does actually identify with having erectile dysfunction. But this company is so amazing. They come in different sizes and that’s really important for penis pumps because if we don’t have the right size, we can actually cause problems. And so all they’re doing is they’re taking the suction with this vacuum device and it’s really specific for the amount of suction and pressure. And what’s also amazing is they also make this female version of one that actually can go over the labia. And this one is also amazing because women are just not given tools to help them with desire, to help them with pleasure. In fact, hypoactive sexual desire disorder is largely something that while it’s a diagnosis for low libido for women, the solution oftentimes is just relax. And every woman knows out there that just telling them to relax is not going to work. And so the lady pump is another amazing way to get blood flow to this area and really increase pleasure. So you can find that information in the show notes below as well as coupon codes. So then back to my question. So when we’re talking about this, you know, this emotional safety thing and like let’s say we have this example, right, where somebody asked to take out the trash or they expected to take out the trash and then the partner didn’t and they’re feeling, you know, pissed. They’re making up stories instead of what you’re talking about around, oh, maybe they just forgot. Now it’s making up stories around they don’t care, they’re not interested in helping or whatever the story is. So, when somebody decides they’re going to really relearn how to feel safe in their relationship, how long, like, how long does this typically take? Because if this has been going on for years, is this something that takes years to get out of?
Kameran: No, it’s not. And in fact, this is why I love what I do so much and the program that I’ve created because a lot of times, depending on like if there’s been infidelity or something like that, oftentimes it will take me about one year to help a couple. But when you’re relearning and you’re just roommates or you just kind of you’re just not as connected as you used to be or you’re fighting a lot, you’re arguing a lot, you’re not really sure if you like each other, six to eight months max is all it takes me to help a couple like this and it’s an intense program, but this is why I love it so much is because it doesn’t take forever. That’s nobody wants to be like, “Okay, let’s sign up for the next four years when you’ve, you know, you’ve been struggling for the last 10.” So, yeah, I like to say that also marriages have a half-life. So, if you realize one day you’re like, man, we’ve really been struggling for 10 years, like, yeah, and you’ve been married 20, the last 10 have been crap. Or if you’re like, man, we’ve been married eight and you know, we’re struggling. Yep. You’ve probably been struggling for the last four. So, it takes an average of six years for people just to get help. And it doesn’t need to take that long. Like, if you’re struggling, I love this idea that if you were going to learn a different language, for example, like I’m learning a different language. My husband’s Arabic, so I’m learning Arabic. Okay? So, it’s really hard, but I wouldn’t be able to do that on my own. So, I have a tutor. I have someone that can help me with the dialect. that can help me learn that because God knows that my husband does not have the patience. So for that, like I’m getting help for that. I wouldn’t just pick up a book and be like, “Okay, well, you know,” and start putting in American dialects to that. I’m going to look like an idiot if I go over to the Middle East. All right? It’s the same thing with marriage. If you didn’t have a great example growing up, your partner didn’t have a great example growing up, how do you know? You only know what you know. So, how do you expect to have a great marriage? How do you expect to have great sex if you’re like, “Man, this I’ve never seen this done. I, you know, like, yeah, I’ve had, you know, a few partners, but didn’t really learn anything from them.” This is why you and I exist is to help people with what they don’t know. And that’s really all that we need to look at it as. It doesn’t have to be this big shameful thing.
Dr. Diane: Yeah, I completely agree. And I’m going to ask you in a moment about practical tools that people can have in the moment where it’s like, “Oh my gosh, I’m really feeling triggered, right? I’m my heart’s pounding. I’m feeling pissed. I’m feeling sad. I’m feeling like whatever it is, that reactive type of thing. And what do we do? But before that, I want to make sure that everybody knows that what we’re talking about with you next week is about how to get over that thing that so many people say they have, which is having the same old fight, and how to really delineate and learn of like, do I care about this because I’m just remembering all these things that I am triggered about from the past, or is this actually a real problem that needs to be solved? And so, how do we get out of this same old fight pattern? That is what’s happening next week. So, if you haven’t subscribed yet, please do subscribe so you make sure you get the alert when we have Kameran back on. Now, we’re going to let people know about some free resources of yours in a second as well, but before we do that, just if you can take a moment to just answer this for us. It’s a good way to leave our time together this week, which is in that moment when we’re feeling maybe whether we’re identifying it with as unsafe or just emotionally disregulated, right? Where we’re not going to have a productive conversation. What kind of tools do you actually give people to do in that moment to help them start to reregulate so they can have a conversation that is more productive?
Five Finger Apology Method and Rebuilding Trust After You Hurt Your Partner
Kameran: Yeah, love that question. So, this is actually going to come down to your own attachment style. But a lot of people haven’t had the experience, exposure, and education that I have in attachment styles. So, here’s what I’m going to tell you to do, okay? If you and we’ll go over attachment styles one second. I’m gonna like I’m gonna ask you about attachment styles next week as well.
Dr. Diane: Yeah. So, just want everybody to like learn we’re gonna what you’re talking about. We’re going to also go deeper into next week.
Kameran: Yeah. So, this is just really quick. Okay. If you’re typically the person that leaves the conversation and you’re like, I’m out. I can’t do this. I can’t do this. Okay. I need you to actually sit in it for one more minute. And if you can’t, I need you to give your partner a time limit. Okay? Hey, I’m feeling really disregulated. I need to take two hours. I will come back in two hours. If you don’t give that time to your partner, that’s when they feel like their skin is being ripped off their body and that’s when they start chasing you. Okay? They need a time when you’re coming back. If you’re typically the person that chases and you’re like, “No, we need to fix this right right now.” Know that your partner when you do that, their skin feels like they’re being ripped off their body. Okay? So, you’re the person that needs to say, “I see you’re getting in the weeds right now. I see you’re really disregulated. How about we come back to this when we’re both a little bit more calm?” So, if you’re the person that’s the chaser, you’re the person that needs to learn to self-regulate. If you’re the runner, you’re the one that needs to co-regulate. Okay? So come back and always, always, always repair. You could fight every single day of your marriage and still be happy if you repair well.
Dr. Diane: I love that. And I’m going to ask you so much more about that next week. Before we leave today, please tell us a little bit about some of your resources. We’re going to have everything in the show notes for links, but I know you have a great blog. I know you have courses and free resources for people to get started with your work. Can you tell us a little bit about those?
Kameran: Yes. So, I have a blog post email that goes out every Thursday where you can get it’s a free marriage tip for the week that will help you. You can read it in seven minutes or less and it goes straight to your inbox or you can check it out on Substack.and.connected. And then I also have a free community where I have done I do monthly workshops for couples that are absolutely free. So you can find all the information in there, what workshops are coming up, all of those things inside that Skool community. You can also get free resources, oodles and gobs of free resources on connection questions that you asked when you were dating but now it’s a little bit awkward or, you know, date night bingo or connection bingo or bettering your sex life, things like that. You can get all of those in that community.
Dr. Diane: Amazing. And we will have all those links in the show notes like I mentioned. Please tune in next week with Kameran and I going deep into how to get out of that same old fight, how to repair relationships, attachment theory, and what this means for you and your relationships, and so much more. Thank you, Kameran, for being here with us. And everybody, we’ll see you again next time. Thank you for listening to the Libido Lounge. Please don’t keep me a secret. Please share this with your friends. You can find me on YouTube, on Instagram, and check out our Modern Libido Club for so much more!
How to Apologize in a Relationship and Rebuild Trust After You Hurt Your Partner Part 2
Dr. Diane: I’m Dr. Diane. Welcome back to another episode of the Libido Lounge. I’m back with Kameran Alareqi today and we talked last time about marriage monogamy, how to actually look at your marriage in relationship to baseball and whether or not it is healthy in the way in the questions you’re asking in the fights you’re having. Are you using fights for productivity or not? And are you turning towards your partner? Are you guys engaging in a way where your marriage can handle those blips because of how many things are working well and how to analyze that and more? Today we’re getting into the conversation around same old fight. How do we deal with this thing that happens for so many couples where we’re stuck having the same old fight? How to repair it? And we’re going to also talk a little bit about attachment theory and what this means for you and your marriage. So Kameran, who’s with me again, is a Gottman certified marriage coach. She’s a host of the Married and Connected podcast. She’s founder of the Recognizing Potential Coaching Program. And really at the core, she helps monogamous couples to have better marriage, deeper connection, and so much more. So thank you for being here with me again, Kameran.
Kameran: It’s great to be with you. Thanks. I’m so excited to be back.
Dr. Diane: Same. Same. So let’s talk about this. So when we are in these situations, right, where people are, I think, come to a lot, which is gosh, like we’ve been married for 20 years or we’ve been married for 10 or 40 or whatever it is, and it’s like we’re having like the same old fight over and over again. One of my initial questions with this is, how do people begin to recognize when they’re triggered and everything is maybe reminding them of this last this last fight or this last thing, this last thing? How do people develop the ability to recognize, oh, this is actually a real problem that’s happening, or wow, this just reminds me of that old thing that was never resolved? Like, do we need to differentiate it or is that actually irrelevant as far as as fixing it?
How to Apologize to Your Partner When You’re Stuck in the Same Old Fight
Kameran: You actually do need to differentiate it. And the reason is because a lot of the times that you are fighting, you’re not actually fighting about what you’re fighting about. So, let’s take money for example. Money is a really common argument that people have. Money isn’t just money. Money is representative of something else. So it could be power, it could be respect, it could be security, or it could be freedom. Okay, those are typically the four things that money means to people. Now if your partner is worried about the bank account because money means to them security but for you it means freedom and your partner’s coming to you saying no no no we can’t spend that that we need to save you need to stop spending you need to cut the Amazon and you know all of that then they’re not getting their freedom. So they may have this vision of like, yeah, but if I spend a little money here, I’m going to make a lot of money there and this is the vision long term. You see what I’m saying? So there’s a meaning underneath the surface that you’re not fighting about that you’re that you’re not even looking at. Okay. The other option might be the fact that you’re, you know, you have to look at your motives. Are you fighting just to be right? Are you fighting or are you solving the problem together? Are you actually fighting for a solution or are you just fighting because you’re addicted to it? Because that’s a thing too. The third thing is when you’re having these perpetual arguments, look at why. Look at what is being said. Again, the message underneath the message. And also look at the resentments that you carry because resentments come from expectations that a lot of times weren’t verbalized. So, going back to the example that we used last week in the trash, it’s well, you didn’t take the trash out. Well, you you might have asked them to take the trash out, but you didn’t specify a time. So, to you again, the trash needed to be taken out 5 seconds from then. To them, it’s like, “Yeah, I’ll do it in the morning.” So, you didn’t actually say, “Hey, can you take the trash out? the trash guys are down the street and also this has raw chicken that stinks in it kind of thing, right? So, a little bit more communication on your part would have been great. So, that being said, we have to look at expectations that weren’t met, judgments that we’re making on our partner that actually really mean that we’re judging ourselves. And then we also have to look at the deeper meaning and and why we continue to have these arguments.
Dr. Diane: So it sounds then if I’m understanding you correctly like yes it is important to differentiate between you know current stuff past stuff and then is it is it true that we could say then that one of the first steps then with actually repairing fights and conflict is one of the first steps then doing exactly that like taking a step back and saying like what is my fault what is my responsibility and owning that as well as like understanding like you’re saying like what is beneath it all? What are we actually fighting about? Because it’s probably in many cases not the trash. Is that one of the first steps to repairing or where do people begin if not there?
Kameran: Yeah, it is. But it’s also looking at the fact a lot of times what will trigger people is the fact of like, oh my god, you keep bringing this up. Whoever’s keeps bringing things up in the in the relationship is still hurt by it. There actually wasn’t repair before. Okay. So to to take care of some of those past things, you might also be taking care of some present things, too. But you also have to look at the fact that like we were taught to apologize when we were preschoolers and that was it. There was never another lesson for as long as we were growing up. So when you’re in preschool and you’re learning sorry, that’s probably not going to cut it for your partner.
The Five Finger Apology Method: What Makes a Real Apology
Kameran: So as an adult, I like to teach the five finger apology method. I’m sorry for and actually own what you did. I know it impacted you in this way. Here’s what I’m going to do to change that. Will you forgive me? And this is what a lot of people are like, “Oh my gosh, that’s gonna take so long.” No. 17 seconds. Watch. I’m really sorry for being late to dinner. I know you worked so hard on that meal and I was late. In the future, I’m I promise you I’m going to send a text before I leave the office or if I’m going to be more than five minutes late. Will you forgive me? That’s all it takes. So, that’s how we repair. And another thing is when you’re repairing, make sure that when your partner is saying, “Hey, I’m sorry for these things.” That you’re not making it about you. That you’re not saying, “Well, no, you really did mean this or you really did that.” Like, no. Validate their response. Validate their apology first. And don’t make it about your time. You’ll get your time to explain why you did what you did, but now is not that time.
Dr. Diane: Yeah. I think this is one of if everybody is listening to only one thing in our two conversations. I feel like this is one of the most important things you’ve said so far, it’s it’s all been great, but one of the most important things because we’re not like you said, we’re not taught how to do this well. And I’ve seen this so many times like you know, even in my personal life, somebody just saying, “Okay, well, I’m sorry.” you know, and even if we say that really sincerely, it is so different than doing what you’re saying and like I’m sorry and like owning it and taking responsibility and talking about repair and understanding impact and and I do think if people are like you’re saying like if people are finding that they’re they’re so triggered about these past things, well that’s probably means that it’s not resolved. It probably means that this has been festering for a long period of time and until we actually get to that point where we’re going to get resolution through something like this five finger apology method, we’re really probably not going to get very far. Is there anything else from a standpoint of repair and and I know there’s many things that that go into your methodology, but from a standpoint of like, okay, we absolutely have to do this is like the next most important thing. Is there anything else you want to add on?
How to Apologize in a Relationship: Timing, Tongue, and Tone
Kameran: I would say timing, tongue, and tone. The three T’s are really important. Timing. Make sure that you’re not bombarding them and being like, “Okay, well, we have to repair this as soon as they walk in the door.” Additional with timing. Our bodies, like our brains only handle an emotion for about 90 seconds. Think about a toddler, right? They’re they’re mad you said no that they couldn’t have, you know, whatever toy it was. 90 seconds later, they’re doing something else. It’s fine. The reason that we’re pissed for a really long time is because we keep ruminating about it. If I would have just said this, if she would have done that, oh my god, I can’t believe that he blah blah blah. Like, that’s why we get mad is because we’re ruminating about it. So, with timing, if you’re not repairing within 24 hours, like it’s I’m I am the coach that will absolutely tell you, “Go to bed. Go to bed.” Because a lot of times you’re going to wake up the next morning and you’re actually rested and you’re like, “That was stupid.” Right? But if you’re not repairing within 24 hours, it’s because you’re choosing to stay childish. So there’s that. So timing is really important when you have the repair as well as you know as why you’re not having the repair. Tongue, watch your words. Okay? Don’t I’m sorry, but if you would have done this or I only did this because you did that. No, that’s not taking accountability. That’s not a repair. So watch your words. And then third is tone. how you start the conversation is 90% of the time how it’s going to end. So if you come in guns blazing, it’s probably not going to work out for you very well. But if you come in and with a soft start of startup of like, hey, are you in the head space to talk about what happened earlier? I would like to apologize. That’s probably going to go a lot better. So tongue, timing, and tone.
Dr. Diane: I just want to take a quick break to say one of the number one things that leads to a lack or just a slowing of passion in the relationship is thinking that our partner’s body and mind and spirit is going to be the same today as tomorrow. So, one of the things that happens for so many bodies, especially for female bodies, is that with time, the pleasure needs change. And we get into those sexual scripts and those habits of doing the same thing over and over and over again, not always realizing that our pleasure body is wanting something else. This creates a lack of passion, a desire, a lack of orgasm, and is one of the reasons why bedrooms can start to get quieter. I talk about how to fix this and so much more walking you through a step-by-step guide for an entire year if you want on how to improve your pleasure life. Start with a free trial, stay for a month, stay for the year, make it yours. You’ll see all of this and more and how to get started in the show notes below this video. I hope you will join me in my hot monogamy society. Now, let’s get back to our episode. Yeah, and thank you for the really specific examples on those. So helpful. I do want to get into attachment styles. I I want to talk and and I’m going to take a pause in a moment, but I want to talk about what people get wrong with attachment styles because attachment is one of these conversations that I think is getting thrown online. It’s like constantly something that a lot of people are finding a lot of awareness around. It’s these attachment styles. But I think oftentimes just like gaslighting was the, you know, the most looked up word of the year a couple years ago and then people were overusing it and applying it wrong and that sort of thing and just, you know, almost like hyper obsessing with it even though it’s a problem. We kind of take it too far. And I’m curious about that with attachment styles. But before we get there, I do want to make sure everybody reminded of one of the least mysterious things in the sexual wellness aisle. And this is physics. And what physics? What I mean by physics is suction moves blood. And in order to get aroused, in order to feel pleasure for both men and women, women get left out of this conversation so much. But in order to feel pleasure, in order to have rock-hard erections, in order to have erections in your 40s and 50s like you did in your teens and 20s, you got to move blood. Just period. There is more to that than it. But there is more than just that. But this is an essential part of it. Which is why I’m so into the company from Dr. Joel Kaplan where we have lady pumps and penis pumps where you have basically different size cylinders. They make tons of different sizes. I’m just holding a couple up today. You have this vacuum and it’s a suction pressure that you can really dial in specific to your needs. And they also have versions for women and different sizes for women. And when you use these, many people report feeling better pleasure, lot longer erections, and the cool thing is men actually grow in size and girth, and these changes have been shown in studies to last. So, you’ll find links for that in the show notes, as well as coupon codes. So, now let’s get into attachment. So, can you give us like briefly, just to make sure everybody’s on the same page, because while I know most of you have probably heard of attachment styles, I do know some of you have not. So Kameran, would you kind of just briefly give us an overview of what they are and then I want to get into what people are getting wrong with them, how are they’re using them inappropriately with their with their conflicts and how we can basically use them in a better, more effective way for our marriages.
Kameran: Yeah. So your attachment style basically is an overview of and a conditioning for how you were raised from birth to three. So, when you were little, were your emotional needs met? Almost every couple that comes to me, one or both will say, “I had a great childhood. I don’t know. I, you know, there wasn’t anything wrong with my childhood. It wasn’t overly traumatic.” And then I asked the question, “Were your emotional needs met?” And it’s like deer in the headlights. And this is the thing. So if you had a part a parent or both parents that weren’t really emotionally attuned, they just were kind of like go to your room, you know, till you’re good kind of thing. Most likely you’re going to be a dismissive avoidant. If you had a lot of trauma in your childhood, a lot of death, a lot of maybe you had one parent that was a dismissive avoidant, one parent that was anxious. Sometimes your emotional needs were met, sometimes they weren’t. you are always on high alert of like okay I’m looking for body language I’m looking for tone I’m you know I’m always walking on eggshells in my home and this is your entire childhood from usually your attachment style is set from birth to three but we don’t remember those times so thinking back to the behaviors that happened from birth to about 10 that’s when you’re you’ll you’ll be able to figure out what your emot what your attachment style is. So anxious is going to be you had either one parent that was very emotionally attuned and one that wasn’t or you had one par parent that was very volatile and you were always walking on eggshells and maybe another parent that wasn’t attuned at all. So that is if you if you have a lot of trauma, you’re going to be a fearful avoidant. If you just were always on high alert, you’re going to be an anxious preoccupied. Those are usually the three that are talked about. Fearful avoidant can also be talked about as a disorganized attachment. So it just kind of depends on, you know, what training your provider has or the person that you’re following on Instagram has has had. So that’s a higher level overview of what they are.
Dr. Diane: And then I think there’s it’s probably easy easy for a lot of people to start to understand where this comes up in conflict, right? somebody that’s going to be more avoidant is going to be oftentimes exactly that. Shut down, leave, not have the conversation versus like that anxious person is going to have that tendency. And so we’ll get into a little bit more of that in a moment. But but first I’m wondering like can we go back to my other question which is do you see common ways that these are and problematic ways that these are maybe misused especially in in relationships? Are do you have any examples of that at all?
Kameran: Yeah, a lot of times, here’s the thing about about anything like this, right? Like attachment styles, your anagram number, your MyersBriggs. Yes, they’re great tools to learn about yourself, to learn why you are the way you are, those kinds of things. But at the end of the day, it’s all your trauma. It’s all childhood trauma and conditioning that has to be overcome that, like we talked about last week, did you see a healthy relationship growing up? Do you even know what that is? And if you have an insecure attachment style, which is the three that I mentioned, I forgot to mention the most important one, which is secure. Secure attachment means I have a healthy relationship. If you’re if you’re not good, I’m still good. Like my emotions are not run by yours. So, that being said, yeah, like a lot of people will say, “Oh, I’m I’m secure.” Well, you might be secure outside of a relationship, but you can only do about 70% of that work outside of a relationship. So, you’re still insecure if you’re not in a relationship. Okay? So, there’s that. That’s a misconception that people have. Another one is using that against your partner, especially in conflict, of like saying something like, “Oh my god, you’re such a you’re such an avoidant.” Or, “Well, if you weren’t such a dismissive avoidant, this wouldn’t happen. something like that. So th those are usually the most common things that I see. They’re they’re misused.
Dr. Diane: Yeah. One thing that I love that you said that reminds me of when I was working with a therapist years ago and I was working with with attachment styles. I I’ve gone back in my my history. I’m not sure if I was anxious or I was disorganized. I feel like I’m very secure now. But it was this therapist that really helped me because what she said to me is as I I came to her was like, “Well, I don’t want to get another relationship until I heal this past stuff, right?” And what she said to me is so analogous. It’s so similar to what you said, which was, “You cannot heal a relationship problem if you’re not in a relationship.” And it really took getting into a relationship with my current partner who is a very secure attachment style and and then that being modeled for me that and so I was doing the work in real time in the relationship and I think that’s a hugely mis misunderstood thing is we have to be whole before we go into the relationship when certain problems are actually only going to be healed inside the relationship.
Kameran: Right. That’s right.
Apologizing After a Fight with Your Spouse and Rebuilding Trust After You Hurt Your Partner
Dr. Diane: Yeah. So in you know and then looking at this from a standpoint of conflict. So how are you seeing this show up and in particular I’m wondering how does it show up even in in sex and intimacy does can you give us a sense of how with an anxious or avoidant type of pattern how people would actually go into their their conflict conversations but also in thinking about how they engage in intimate and physical and sexual intimacy.
Kameran: Absolutely love that question. So I call it the loop of doom. It’s called that a lot of times on online as well. So what’s going to happen is one person usually the one who’s anxious preoccupied because this is the most common dynamic is anxious preoccupied with a fear with a dismissive avoidant. Okay? So an anxious preoccupied you’re not even going to realize it. But when you go and you’re asking for connection you’re shaming, blaming, questioning, criticizing. Okay. Well, all that does, if you picture an infinity symbol, all that does then is activate an avoidance in her narrative of I’m stupid. I’m never going to be enough for her. I’m never going to be able to give her what she wants. And I say her because 75% of the time, women are the anxious, preoccupied, where men are the dismissive avoidant. I do occasionally see that flip-flopped, but not nearly as much as I see it with the woman being the AP and the man being a DA. Okay. So, he is sitting here thinking, “I’m never going to be enough. I I can’t do it.” Like all these things. So, what’s he do? He feels shame. He feels anger. He feels sadness. So, he avoids. He drugs, alcohol, porn, scrolling on my phone, things like that, right? What does that do for her then? Go back down the other side of the infinity symbol. that’s going to then in like trigger in her narrative can’t trust him. He’s he’s never he doesn’t love me. He doesn’t care. he I’m never going to be good enough for him. So for him, the DA thinks what I do is never good enough. For an AP, it’s I am never good enough. So those are different. Okay. But they’re triggering the exact same emotions. Anger, sadness, loneliness, things like that. How does this show up in sex? Okay. A lot of times a DA is going to use and even an FA because the thing for a fearful avoidant, they’re going to run the gamut sometimes within a 10-minute period. So, they’re going to have dismissive traits and anxious traits. Okay? So for all of you FAS out there, like you got to really think about how you show up in conflict. I used to be an FA and the way that I did, I leaned heavily to the anxious side. Okay? So for this, a lot of times an avoidant is going a dismissive avoidant is going to use sex to reconnect or they’re going to use it as a coping strategy where what we talked about was like scrolling on your phone, porn, things like that. They’re going to use sex to numb out. I don’t like the way I’m feeling in my body. I don’t know how to name that emotion because again, when they were kids, they were told to go to their room and handle their emotions on their own. They weren’t ever sat like their parents never sat with them and said, “Oh, you must be feeling disappointed.” They don’t have the vocabulary, not because they’re stupid. They just simply weren’t taught what they’re feeling. So, they know it feels like crap, but they don’t know how to name it. So, they will use sex as a way to not feel that way anymore. And anxious will use sex as, “Okay, he’s having sex with me, so now we’re good. where like that’s the reconnection point, the like come closer, I need you kind of thing. Where a dismissive avoidant, it doesn’t mean that at all because a lot of times a dismissive avoidant may be having sex with you, but they’re not like they’re not connected. That emotional connection is not there for them.
Dr. Diane: Yeah, really helpful. And I think it’s a important thing to realize, too. I mean, oftentimes people say, you know, sex can be the barometer of marriage, but what you’re bringing up is like it doesn’t, you know, that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s true, right? Somebody can be completely engaged with that but actually at the core disengaged from the relationship and checked out and literally just going through the motions.
Kameran: Absolutely.
Dr. Diane: So such great information you gave us today and last week. I know we have to let you go here, but I do know people are going to want to connect with you to continue this conversation. And I know you have a great couple places for people to get started with your work and some of it is even free gifts for people, free information for people. So, can you tell us a little bit about that?
Kameran: Yeah, you can always find me on Instagram, Mary.connected. You can find me in my free school community where there are oodles and gobs of workshops and resources and all kinds of different coaching for free for you to better your marriage that way. And then I’m also on Substack, so you can find me on there. I have an email newsletter that goes out. You can read it in seven minutes or less every single Thursday. That’s always got a tip for you. And yeah, my website www.recognizingpotential.com.
Dr. Diane: Perfect. And we’ll have all of that in the show notes. I hope everybody does go and check that out. Please do subscribe if you haven’t yet. Share this with your friends and family. I know so many people need this information and Kameran’s help. Thank you again, Kameran, for being here with us on the lounge. And everybody, I’ll see you again next week. Thank you for listening to the Libido Lounge. Please don’t keep me a secret. Please share this with your friends. You can find me on YouTube, on Instagram, and check out our Modern Libido Club for so much more!
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