Fixing Libido Mismatch in Relationships: From Obligatory Sex to Real Connection and Pleasure with Matt and Sheri Salis

Welcome to the Libido Lounge: Breaking Free from Mediocrity

Dr. Diane Mueller: Hey everybody, welcome to another episode on the Libido Lounge. I’m your host, board-certified sexologist, Dr. Diane, and today we are going to talk about a really important thing. We’re going to talk about mediocrity and how many people go through their lives, till their graves, in these mediocre kind of relationships, just accepting that as normal. And a lot of what I’m going to interview and talk to our guests about today is the concept of emotional safety in relationships and how to get out of the mediocrity of relationships. We’re going to hear a little bit about their story with alcoholism. And as you’re listening to this, I really encourage you to listen not just from that lens, but from whatever lens. If you are in a relationship that you would define as mediocre or even as just good but could be better, you really want to listen to this from that lens of how you can apply these techniques, whether learned from something major like alcoholism or trauma or something else. These techniques are really universal no matter the cause of any sorts of dysregulated emotions, emotional unsafety, or mediocrity. So, we’re going to talk about that. It’s going to be a super fun interview. Welcome to my guests Sherry and Matt Salis. Thank you for being here.

Matt and Sherry Salis: Thanks for having us, Dr. Diane. We’re happy to be here.

Dr. Diane Mueller: Did I get your name right? Did I say that correct in the intro? Do we need to correct me at all?

Matt and Sherry Salis: It’s Salis. You were pretty darn close.

Dr. Diane Mueller: It’s okay. Want to make sure our listeners hear that correctly. So, welcome, welcome, welcome. So, let’s just start. I know some of the trauma for your relationship was around alcoholism. Can you just tell us a little bit about your background, like how you got into this work of supporting people here, what happened when alcoholism was part of the relationship, and the level of breakdown that you guys had?

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The Impact of Alcoholism on Relationships

Matt Salis: I think it started like it does for many relationships. We met in college in our 20s. Drinking was just a huge part of the culture. It was a part of weekends and weekdays and coping with the stress of school, but more than that, just having fun. We went into early adulthood, and the drinking culture morphed as it does with young adults in careers. Now we’ve got disposable income, and we’re going out more, but I think one of the big red flags that you saw first, Sherry, was that I was drinking through the week, and it wasn’t social. It was just me in our apartment.

Sherry Salis: Yeah. And that kind of shocked me, I guess. When we were in college, drinking was the norm, but I thought once we progressed into our young adult professional lives that the drinking would slow down, and it made me really uncomfortable and nervous. I just felt like you weren’t maturing, that you weren’t fulfilling this potential that I thought you could have as being a good partner and a good listener. And it led to lots of bickering and arguments.

Matt Salis: Somewhere along the line, it turned medicinal for me. It turned into anxiety and stress relief. I’d say I had about a 10-year period of active alcoholism. I note the beginning and the end of that as the first time I tried to quit and was unsuccessful until I made it to long-term sobriety almost 10 years ago now. The impact it had on our relationship was just devastating. Trust was broken. I wasn’t so much a lying sneak drinker, but I was prioritizing alcohol over my wife and kids, and that had disastrous consequences. Finally, I recognized I needed to get sober. I did that through a variety of methods. I was not a 12-step person, not an AA person, but a lot of reading and a lot of writing. I began to publish my writing, and through that, we started to work with people who had similar stories. We started a podcast that’s been going for, gosh, five or six years now. And yeah, just continuing to connect with people.

Rebuilding Sexual Intimacy After Trauma

Matt Salis: A big part of the dysfunction in our relationship was around sex and intimacy. That is where, just working with people and asking questions and people telling their stories, you hit a roadblock at sex and intimacy. People will openly talk about a lot of things, but that’s something where people tend to hold that private. So I decided to go back to school and got a master’s in sexual health so that I could further explore the intimacy component, and that is an area we continue to pursue, not only from a research perspective but also in working with other people and helping them get their intimacy back on track after, like you said, in our case, it’s alcoholism, but it doesn’t have to be any kind of major roadblock or trauma. There’s a lot of trust broken and a lot of work that needs to be done.

Dr. Diane Mueller: So, if you would share a little bit about where you were at intimately and with your sex life when you guys were going through the alcoholism and as it progressed. One of the reasons I ask this is because I know so often for our listeners, one thing that happens is either they’ve gotten, for many different reasons, to a point where sex is something that either does not happen or happens so infrequently. And one of those things that I think it’d be great to talk about today is, okay, well, how do we begin to repair the emotions, but also repair the fact that it can be awkward and strange to start having sexual intimacy again? So, did you guys get to a point in your relationship where sexual intimacy was very rare or even not at all?

Matt Salis: No, actually, ours was the other problem there. That’s a really great question that leads right into some of the research that we’ve done. We found that in an alcoholic relationship, almost 40% of partnerships result in either sexlessness or near-sexlessness, which contrasts with some research that I found on general population relationships that say that number is closer to 16%. So almost two and a half times as often when there’s alcohol involved, it results in sexlessness and near-sexlessness. The other side of that coin is relationships that continue to pursue physical intimacy, and it becomes really toxic, and that was our case. In addition to getting that dopamine hit from alcohol and trying to use it as stress relief and anxiety relief, I was also turning to sex in that same way. And at the same time as I’m requiring—not requiring but really needing and wanting—that sexual contact because it was a form of relief for me, I was completely despicable to you, Sherry. Why don’t you talk a little bit about your experience when our sex continued, but maybe it shouldn’t have?

Sherry Salis: Yeah. It became a chore, a burden. I was resentful about it. But I felt like just appeasing was going to avoid fights and conflict in the relationship. I would kind of zone out. I didn’t really care about having it. I didn’t enjoy it. In the beginning of the relationship, you know, you are young and in college, and almost just a couple of years in after we moved away from college and into that young professional life, I started pulling back because I think it was like self-esteem, or this sense of arrogance that you felt like you knew what I needed for my body better. So oftentimes during intimacy, there would be situations where I would want something, and you would be dismissive about it. So it kind of made me start questioning my own ability to enjoy sex.

Matt Salis: Mansplaining is so romantic in those moments.

Sherry Salis: Exactly. So early on, it started to take this path of, oh, this is just for him, and there would be, you know, it wasn’t altogether awful every time. I mean, we have four children, so we did have sex frequent enough for that, for sure. But that just was something that continued where I felt more shut down in the bedroom, and I could see that his ego was taking a hit. You weren’t really feeling it because I wasn’t giving you the sense that I was enjoying it. So you could pick up on my displeasure, but we still continued to have sex throughout the relationship and throughout the addiction just because there was a big libido mismatch between us too. And you know, we had to do a lot of educating ourselves once that relationship repair and recovery work was necessary.

What to Do When Libidos Don’t Match

Dr. Diane Mueller: Yeah, I mean, a couple of things that you say I think are so important for everybody to hear. And one is, it sounds like there was almost this obligatory type of sex that was happening where it’s like, well, this is what I’m supposed to do, and another thing that you said when you’re saying you’re almost checked out, it sounds almost dissociative. If you haven’t taken a minute yet to go to wanttowantit.com to get your bonuses, almost $250 worth of free bonuses for pre-ordering my book, I recommend you do that now. We’re going to go through so many reasons and so many solutions to fixing low libido for both men and women. It is action-packed with solutions from supplements to diet to lifestyle to lab tests you should talk to your doctor about to physical routines you can change. So many things designed to help support estrogen and testosterone and circulation and erectile dysfunction, vaginal dryness, so much more. So, if you go to wanttowantit.com, you can find that book with its pre-order, and you can also then take advantage of the almost $250 worth of bonuses I am giving away for pre-order that will not be available for long. Now, let’s get back to our episode. Where the body, like we can’t as humans, for people that don’t know the word, it’s like where we can’t as humans almost feel. We’re not in our bodies. We’re not feeling the sensation. We’re not in tune to the pleasure, the touch, the experience because our brain is so dissociated. It’s checked out from actually being there. So my next question for both of you is, you know, once, I’m sure there was a process with really kind of accepting that this was a problem and it needed to change and it was impactful. Where was the beginning point of seeing, okay, there was repair happening, and what were some of those initial steps that you were doing to really repair that? Was it a lot of individual work? Was it a lot of couple work? Was it a combination? Can you just walk us through that process?

Matt Salis: There’s a lot there for sure. One of the things I want to highlight is the rejection that’s inherent in consent when it’s obligatory, like you talked about. So, not only was that tough for Sherry, but especially as I got sober and I started to be more aware of my surroundings, that was really hard on me. I knew she wasn’t into it. And so, even when we would have sex, it felt bad and dirty and wrong. And that really, in a way, was a blessing because it caused us to really dig in and not just accept the status quo because the status quo was hurting us both. So, you know, one of the really important initial steps that we had to take—Sher mentioned that our sexual desire discrepancy is pretty wide. That’s super common, and I had to learn that. I had to learn that sexual desire discrepancy is basically universal in relationships, and in long-term relationships, it changes over time, maybe for both sides. I know one of the things that happened for us was after Sher had our kids, her desire went down even further. Her libido went down even further, and mine didn’t change. And so we’re navigating all of that. It’s really difficult. One of the first things we had to do was acknowledge that neither of us were sexually broken. That there’s nothing wrong with the degree to which I want to have sex, and there’s nothing wrong with the degree to which Sherry is losing interest. That respect that we gained for each other was huge because, prior to that, really educating ourselves about the fact that desire discrepancy is normal and fine and nobody is broken was huge.

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Creating Emotional Safety in Relationships

Matt Salis: And then, you know, we had to create in our relationship a level of emotional safety that had not been there before. I had to learn that the way I interact throughout the day impacts how Sherry’s going to feel when we go to bed at night. Whereas, I’m much more of a compartmentalizer, and we can argue, or I can yell at one of the kids because they did something wrong, or I can be frustrated about politics and be screaming at the TV screen and causing all this anxiety in the house. I can do all of that and then I’m ready to go. And Sherry wears all that and brings that into the bedroom and thinks, you know, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but your anxiety was high, and I was unattractive because of it. If I’m a compartmentalizer, how would you describe yourself?

Sherry Salis: I describe myself as a compiler. All those little incidents throughout the day would wear on me, and then coming to bed, after taking care of kids, and even when they’re teenagers, there’s still a lot of taking care of you have to do, and then trying to fulfill his needs. When we realized that we had respect for one another’s discrepancies, that made it a lot easier, I think, for me to move forward because I was feeling the trust and the respect and the appreciation for where I was. So I feel like I could say no, I’m not interested in having sex, and that would be heard, and it would be nothing other than okay, and then we would go to sleep. Whereas before, during addiction, and before we learned this, there would be more confrontation, more cajoling. So then, I think that allowed me to open up, and you had mentioned this awkwardness when you do stop sex. Even when you’re not stopping sex, it’s still awkward to get back into finding the pleasure for yourself and enjoying it again. So when I was feeling more respected and had more emotional safety, it was a huge challenge to try to learn more about the things that I would like to have in bed and have, you know, because when you’ve disassociated yourself from it, you don’t really know what you like anymore. You don’t really know what’s going to feel good, other than liking for it to be over.

Recovering Intimacy After Trauma

Dr. Diane Mueller: Well, what about the emotional side of things? What was that process like as far as restoring the actual trust? And do you have some foundational principles you recommend around, like, with the work you’ve done as well as your own experience, like this is so important to really begin to rebuild that trust?

Matt Salis: Yeah, I think we do. The first thing I want to say is we came across this in a really muddled, nonsequential, not helpful way. Like, it took us four or five years to figure this stuff out, and it was ugly, right? But now we can see it, and we can present it to others in a pretty concise, not easy by any means, and not fast either. Time is a huge component, but in a linear fashion. I mentioned earlier that I’m more of a compartmentalizer, and I can have a rough day, and things can go bad, and I’m still ready for physical intimacy. That, I think, is not the case, certainly with my partner, and with a lot of couples we work with, the partner needs something different. They need a sequence, and it all comes down to trust.

Key Steps to Rebuilding Trust

Matt Salis: The first component is emotional safety. When I talk about emotional safety, it’s not just that my direct interactions with Sherry are calm and peaceful and predictable. That’s another huge one. But it’s also that she witnesses me interacting with the outside world in a calm, predictable, reasonable way as well. Huge, can’t overemphasize this, are my interactions with our kids. She needs to see me respecting them and treating them well. It doesn’t mean I can’t discipline our kids, but it needs to be measured and needs to make sense, and I need to make time for them. It sounds kind of crazy, but my interactions with our kids is probably the most important thing to Sherry feeling sexual desire for me. And so one of the big things we had to learn, Diane, that was tough, was Sherry loves our kids and puts her weight and energy into them more than I do. That’s hard for me to admit. That’s embarrassing. I don’t like that. But I put a lot of that same energy into her. And as long as we understand that triangle, we can navigate it successfully. And what we found is we’re not alone. That’s fairly common. So emotional safety is huge. And again, it includes yelling at the TV screen because my football team lost a game. I can’t create that level of unease in the house and then expect Sherry to feel attracted to me.

The Role of Non-Sexual Intimacy

Matt Salis: The second step is emotional intimacy. Before Sherry is eager for physical intimacy, we have to connect on an emotional level. I have to be a good listener. I have to be a listener who isn’t trying to solve all her problems for her and then move on to the next thing. I have to take the time to listen and provide whatever kind of support she might want. And at the same time, I have to be willing to be open and communicative and not just dumping on her. This is a tricky one because, for men in our society, we really have very few outlets that are emotionally safe. Most of us interact with other men by joking and teasing and making fun of each other, and then we use our partners as our one and only safe emotional space. And so it’s really easy to turn our partners into a dumping ground. One of the things that Esther Perel says that I love so much is that you can’t be a mother and a lover at the same time. And so if I’m turning to Sherry to nurture me and to heal all my wounds, it’s really hard for her to be attracted to me. So, there’s a lot of pieces within that emotional intimacy piece. There’s also a really strong need for non-sexual intimacy. When I walk past Sherry, if she’s working on something, standing in the kitchen, for instance, a touch on the shoulder and a little rub goes a lot further than a butt slap, especially once we’ve been married for a long time. And so being physically intimate in a non-sexual way, that’s a component that we had to learn and figure out how to add to the relationship. And all three of those first pieces—the emotional safety, emotional intimacy, and non-sexual intimacy—those are all about trust. And those can result, once Sherry starts to feel a higher level of trust, in mutually satisfactory, mutually beneficial sexual intimacy. And so that’s kind of the sequence. I don’t need the sequence. I can jump right to the physical sexual intimacy. I have to understand how important the sequence is for my partner for it to be mutually beneficial.

Bringing Fun and Playfulness Back

Sherry Salis: And I think that we also had to learn that we needed to start having fun together. When you have something traumatic like an addiction, the fun is gone. But that happens, I think, in some of our friends’ relationships that there hasn’t been addiction that we know of or abuse of some sort of addictive substance. So I think there had to be some playfulness and fun that had to be thrown in there because, when we’re trying to get over that awkwardness of getting back in sync with one another, there has to be this level of respect and consistency and that emotional intimacy and being comfortable with that non-sexual touch. But then, when you’re in it, and things don’t always go perfect in the bedroom when you’re trying to be romantic, you have to be able to find the ability to laugh a little bit and be okay with that and feel that comfort. So, we also had to find some fun things that we could do together outside the bedroom.

Dr. Diane Mueller: Yeah, I love that. A friend and colleague of mine who’s a sex therapist, Ally Iceman, she told me she uses the word “siggled” a lot for, like, the sex giggles, of getting to that point where it’s like it doesn’t have to be serious all the time inside or outside of the bedroom and bringing in silliness and bringing in playfulness and laughter in the middle of a sexual experience all the way to bringing more of that outside of the bedroom, too.

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Understanding Your Turn-Ons

Dr. Diane Mueller: And I want to make sure that everybody also knows, like, one of the things, thinking about this emotional standpoint, remembering you guys, you can go to mylibidodoc.com to take my quiz because there I break down the five biggest turn-ons for people and understanding your partner’s turn-ons. Just like Matt and Sher are talking about here, about that emotional component of things, what I have found is some people have a higher propensity for that to be a bigger part of their sexual experience. So if you want to learn this about your partner and yourself and your biggest turn-ons, definitely go to mylibidodoc.com.

Looking Ahead to Part Two

Dr. Diane Mueller: And we’re going to wrap up this episode here. I’m going to bring Sher and Matt back, and we are going to talk in part two about desire mismatch, what they’ve done more to help with that. We’re going to talk about things like what Sherry’s done from a dissociative standpoint to get back into her body to enjoy sex more, what Matt has done to recover from the ego perspective and really get back into being able to provide more fully in the way that he wants and that they both want. So we’re going to talk about all of that and more in our continued conversation. So, look in the show notes for part two below.

Matt and Sherry’s Podcast: Intoxicated

Dr. Diane Mueller: And then also, as we wrap up, Sherry and Matt, we want to mention the podcast they have. So, Sherry and Matt’s podcast is the Intoxicated podcast. So, we’ll put that in the show notes as well. And in the Intoxicated podcast, you can find all of their work and more. So Sher and Matt, I was just saying to everybody, the Intoxicated podcast is your podcast. Are there any final words you want to leave us about that?

Matt Salis: I just want folks to know how thankful we feel to have had something big happen in our lives that forced us, more or less, to look at our relationship because, you know, it’s hard to say that alcoholism was a blessing. And I know that sounds just awful to a lot of people, but the recovery portion of alcoholism has been a huge blessing because I think, without it, we would have, as you said right off the top, had a mediocre sex life. And now what we have is better than anything I could have ever imagined, even back when I was a horny little teen and 20-year-old. And so, doing the work is beneficial not just to folks that are in recovery, but to anyone actually understanding that if you’re not satisfied, the ability to become more than just satisfied is out there for everybody.

Closing Thoughts

Dr. Diane Mueller: Yeah, thank you for that. It’s such a great reminder, and I really appreciate you being here. And everybody, we’ll have the libido code, how to get part two, and a link for Sher and Matt’s podcast in the show notes below. So, thanks everybody for being here with me, and thank you Sher and Matt, and we’ll see you all real soon. Ciao for now.

Dr. Diane Mueller: Thank you for listening to the Libido Lounge. Please don’t keep me a secret. Please share this with your friends. You can find me on YouTube, on Instagram, and check out our Modern Libido Club for so much more!

(Experiencing a dead bedroom? Bring back your intimacy and spark through a 90-day plan with our guide, Dead Bedroom.)